"Quality anime was made up until Evangelion screwed it up."

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Bonham
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"Quality anime was made up until Evangelion screwed it up."

Postby Bonham » Wed May 06, 2009 12:44 am

More or less inspired from this annoyance.

Does anyone here actually share that sentiment? Sure, there were plenty of interesting visions brewing back then, but you saw practically not of them on television. Miyazaki and Oshii found their creative strides through film, not through series (the latter's amazing knack for comedy aside). What else, really? I mean, the original Macross is very good, but it's also a trashy soap opera. For actual instances of ingenuity, you turn to Night on the Galactic Railroad, The Wings of Honneamise, Patlabor 2 or Porco Rosso.

Where's Bebop? Utena? Lain? Mononoke? Haibane? Texhnolyze? Haruhi Suzumiya? Baccano? Mushi-shi? Denno Coil?

It's like those with an endless hunger for nostalgia got stuck in the 70s and 80s and never grew out of those ages. The same type of thinking is applied for film and music; I'll never understand it.

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Littlewolf
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Re: "Quality anime was made up until Evangelion screwed it up."

Postby Littlewolf » Wed May 06, 2009 12:51 am

Yeah, since Utena was 1996, that kills their argument for me. As well as Boogiepop, Cowboy Bebop, Escaflowne, Lain, Cardcaptor Sakura, Fruits Basket, and so forth with tv animation I found wonderful.

I do admit I'm feeling a bit of nostalgia for cel-painted anime, or at least the anime of my fandom prime, which is mid-90s to around 2003. They just don't make it like they used to... or maybe I've just lost interest. Something every now and then surprises me though.
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Bonham
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Re: "Quality anime was made up until Evangelion screwed it up."

Postby Bonham » Wed May 06, 2009 12:56 am

Littlewolf wrote:I do admit I'm feeling a bit of nostalgia for cel-painted anime, or at least the anime of my fandom prime, which is mid-90s to around 2003. They just don't make it like they used to... or maybe I've just lost interest. Something every now and then surprises me though.

It's definitely a different feeling watching the kind of creativity Anno had with the low budget of the original Evangelion series, compared to the artificiality of the recent movie remake of the first six episodes.

2007 is personally my favorite year as far as anime goes, though. Mononoke is actually one of the best examples of the benefits for going digital. The direction and animation would be ridiculously hard and practically impossible for an anime studio to do on cells.

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Re: "Quality anime was made up until Evangelion screwed it up."

Postby Zanarkand Princess » Wed May 06, 2009 1:20 pm

I'm sorry you just don't go around blaming Evangelion for the state of the anime industry now and not get blacklisted in my book :twisted:
and I also disagree. Lain, Cowboy Bebop, Technolyze, Boogiepop Phantom, Ghost In The Shell and even shojo like NANA, and the best thing to come out of a porn game Rumbling Hearts. Plus Haruhi.

I always thought Macross was one of the most overrated anime ever though.
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Re: "Quality anime was made up until Evangelion screwed it up."

Postby Zin5ki » Wed May 06, 2009 8:36 pm

I'll admit, I'm keen on making sure I'm versed in a smattering of the classics. Years from now, I'd hate to know that my contemporary favourites had been forgotten in the passing of time, so I hope to honour elder fans in having some familiarity with the works they loved. Macross is still somewhat pricey though, and I'm hoping I can get an appreciation for Yamato by only watching one or two films (such an amount can be equated to my current Patlabor experience).

Although it's an OVA and as such may not count, one gem of a pre-Evangelion series that comes to mind is Key: The Metal Idol. Flawed in parts, but substantial and ultimately breathtaking. As for actual televised works hailing from days of yore, I'm not really able to provide much insight, not being familiar with the works of Yoshiyuki Tomino. (Ideon anyone?)

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Bonham
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Re: "Quality anime was made up until Evangelion screwed it up."

Postby Bonham » Wed May 06, 2009 8:52 pm

Zin5ki wrote:I'll admit, I'm keen on making sure I'm versed in a smattering of the classics. Years from now, I'd hate to know that my contemporary favourites had been forgotten in the passing of time, so I hope to honour elder fans in having some familiarity with the works they loved.

Plenty of would-be classics will be ignored, and the merely lucrative will be held up as the pinnacle of a medium (or genre). God, if I had my way, everyone getting into jazz would seek out Andrew Hill, Chico Hamilton, Sam Rivers and Roland Kirk, and no one would ever talk about Miles Davis.

I mean, it's good to check out classics from any point and time, but one shouldn't feel obligated to do so.

As for actual televised works hailing from days of yore, I'm not really able to provide much insight, not being familiar with the works of Yoshiyuki Tomino. (Ideon anyone?)

Most of the time I find it pointless and stupid to hold contempt for an artist, as entertainment is subjective and one's enjoyment (or lack thereof) has no bearing on your own blah blah blah. However, I will make the occasional irrational exception; my dislike of Tomino and the fandom surrounding him is one such example.

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Re: "Quality anime was made up until Evangelion screwed it up."

Postby iwatch2muchanime » Thu May 07, 2009 10:24 am

Well i've always found the series made in the 90s to be the staple of where it was great. I watch a lot and there are always gems, but when i go back to watch Slayers, Lodoss Wars, Nadesico, or Cowboy Bebop or hell even not so great shows like Orphen, Dirty Pair Flash, Aika or Nuku Nuku, i just get hit with what anime was then and really wish it was still there.

Now i do like stuff now and even in the 80s, some quite a bit. but the 90s was just where it was at.

However I don't see Eva causing an ISSUE for anime in the industry, it did start a lot of trends that we casually do and see now, but it isn't really a BAD thing, some things can even gain from it. It's all on whatever people find enjoyable or not.

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Re: "Quality anime was made up until Evangelion screwed it up."

Postby Zin5ki » Thu May 07, 2009 9:12 pm

The thing with Evangelion is that it's possible to isolate it from the intensive marketing and franchising it has received- within the overgrown body we can still locate the heart.

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Re: "Quality anime was made up until Evangelion screwed it up."

Postby Zanarkand Princess » Thu May 07, 2009 10:20 pm

Exactly, it's possible to forget every half naked Rei or Asuka figure when you are watching the actual show. Sometimes I think that's been lost for the Japanese otaku though, what make the show amazing is lost within mech references and life size dolls. It's almost ironic.
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Re: "Quality anime was made up until Evangelion screwed it up."

Postby Bonham » Fri May 08, 2009 3:45 am

Honestly, Evangelion is the Citizen Kane and Watchmen for anime. Ridiculously (though interestingly) flawed narrative aside, it opened channels that simply did not exist prior.

Sadly...

Zanarkand Princess wrote:Sometimes I think that's been lost for the Japanese otaku though, what make the show amazing is lost within mech references and life size dolls. It's almost ironic.

... much like Watchmen, imitators have largely only taken the most superficial readings of the show. Watchmen downplayed the actual portrayal of violence and deconstructed characters to a human, moral and philosophical level, superhero comics see the gritty atmosphere and that they can write morally-corrupt personalities too, yet not realize any of the criticisms against authoriatianism and two moral extremes that Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons gave. Evangelion is a bit more unwieldly in what it reaches for than Watchmen (for better and for worse), but, for one specific example, too many anime creators took the Reluctant Hero in the form of Shinji without recognizing the clinical-depression and very human, conflicting moral beliefs the character has.

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Re: "Quality anime was made up until Evangelion screwed it up."

Postby Psycho 101 » Fri May 08, 2009 9:07 am

Saying anime was high quality until Evangelion screwed it up is like saying beer was good until say Bud Lite screwed it up or that this entire group of a product sucks because of one particular type of that product. It's idiotic and just stupid. Hello troll. There have been many great anime made before and after Evangelion. Sure times have changed and the way anime is made has changed too. But both styles in the 70/80's the 90's and current styles all have their strengths and weaknesses. We may be more saturated now with mindless drivel that's cut straight from cookie cutter molds but there are still great titles being made. Anime as a fandom was higher quality until some fans screwed it up with mindless drivel like this and their ignorance.

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Re: "Quality anime was made up until Evangelion screwed it up."

Postby Zanarkand Princess » Fri May 08, 2009 1:31 pm

HellKorn wrote:Honestly, Evangelion is the Citizen Kane and Watchmen for anime. Ridiculously (though interestingly) flawed narrative aside, it opened channels that simply did not exist prior.

Sadly...

Zanarkand Princess wrote:Sometimes I think that's been lost for the Japanese otaku though, what make the show amazing is lost within mech references and life size dolls. It's almost ironic.

... much like Watchmen, imitators have largely only taken the most superficial readings of the show. Watchmen downplayed the actual portrayal of violence and deconstructed characters to a human, moral and philosophical level, superhero comics see the gritty atmosphere and that they can write morally-corrupt personalities too, yet not realize any of the criticisms against authoriatianism and two moral extremes that Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons gave. Evangelion is a bit more unwieldly in what it reaches for than Watchmen (for better and for worse), but, for one specific example, too many anime creators took the Reluctant Hero in the form of Shinji without recognizing the clinical-depression and very human, conflicting moral beliefs the character has.


I still strongly believe that Shinji Ikari was the inspiration for the loser harem leads. Almost every harem lead before that was either actually pursuing the girls before they realized that she(or they) were crazy, didn't mind the company of many beautiful women around or had some other resemblance of a personality. I think it's sort of sad to see them reduced to The Loser, Tsundere and Rei Ayanami (because she's a character trait all by herself now) and these traits by themselves without acknowledging anything else are hollow and kind of ridiculous. Like the Tsundere. Shana and Louise annoy me to to no end, I thought Taiga would too but she and Haruhi are some of the only examples I can think of, of this being done really
well with a Main Character. Yuki Nagato is one of the only examples of a good Rei Ayanami that I can think of.

How can you blame Evangelion? Because it was made? That's crazy, you can blame all the "me too" that happens in the industry because that's the problem.
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Re: "Quality anime was made up until Evangelion screwed it up."

Postby Saki » Wed May 13, 2009 6:30 pm

I don't think NGE screwed it up, but personally, 80's and 90's anime is what stole my heart. Especially the 2nd version of my fave series (made in 1994) and some other series. I admit there are some 2000's series I like a lot (like Bleach, GetBackers and Chi's Sweet Home), but I have a weakness for old-school anime. I'm an 1986er after all XD.
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